very personal subject

[rachacha29]

Hoppe-
I did not mean to be harsh at all. I just felt badly that she felt so ashamed.
I disagree with "It felt bad, It was bad..."
I think it can feel bad, but not be bad.
Think of how many bad feelings you have that are actually untrue in reality.
As far as calling someone "normal," what I am referring to is not in a general sense of normal, but normal in terms of documented behavoir for the age range she was talking about. Also, as this message board shows, most of us have experienced it.
I can see how I might seem harsh, and I apologize. I think it may come out that way, because, as I wrote before, I have felt the same way as dandelion and I wish that when I did I knew that what I had done was not bad. That's all.

[rachacha29]

I am very glad for you that your friend doesn't seem so upset. I hope that that helps you.
I wonder why you said that you have something else that you can't write. Do you think that you might want to tell us? Im not sure you would have let us know that there WAS anything else if you didn't.
Also, as I have said before, I was wondering if there was something else that bothered you. Perhaps this thing is it.

[rachacha29]

It's a decision you need to make.
I think everyone would be happy to listen.
There is no way anyone could find you.
Beleive me, if they could, I wouldn't be on here!

[hoppe]

Dandelion - don't reveal anything about yourself you do not want to. Sometimes it helps to share. But you might regret it. Think about it and be sure before you do anything.

I hope you feel better. I also hope everything works out okay with your friend.

hoppe

[rachacha29]

I wonder how you are. A lot has been happening to you, and you are dealing with so many things.
I hope you are ok.

[dandelion]

Thank you guys so much for being so supportive. I am feeling really good now that I have talked to you guys and my friend. I don't feel as dirty as before and realizing whatever happened it wasn't my fault. I think this summer I am going to make an appointment with a psychiatrist/hypnotist so I can really deal with the situation. My friend is coming home this weekend (from school) and she said we should get together and talk. She doesn't really remember anything, but after analyzing her email a little more, she also said what we did wasn't normal. How could she know that if she doesn't remember much? I think she remembers more then she lets on, but just doesn't want to deal with it. I think my picking may also get better because of dealing with this. I still have to get over the recent picks I did before getting this all off my chest, but I really feel like it is going to help. Thank you guys again sooo much. I only wish I could give you something back.

[skigirl]

Just something to consider.....

Sex play between two people of comparative ages, at any age, is for the most part normal behavior. Meaning that if you two are so close in age, as you pointed out, and that you have been particularly close emotionally and had formed a tight bond, it is more likely that you would have been sex-play partners simply by the fact that you spent so much time together, lending to a comfort factor. It's also typical behavior to "branch out" and experiment with other children when opportunity arises, as you were talking about with the other sleepovers. What is abnormal behavior is when there is a power differential, and this usually occurs when there is an age/maturity difference such as a teenager or adult with a child under age 10. The abuse comes with the manipulation. As I'm sure you're aware, it is exceedingly difficult to exactly define "normal" behavior. If you feel bad about this past activity with your friend, this may not be because what you did was wrong, but maybe you've been raised in such a way as to believe sex is inherently wrong. This is a very strong message that women have been receiving since the beginning of time. That supposedly it's not okay to enjoy sex like men do, and if a woman does enjoy sex she's a slut. We've all been dealt that message in one way or another.

I would like to very strongly interject that the vast majority of victims of childhood sexual abuse do not block out or fail to remember such life-defining events. In fact, just the opposite happens. Most survivors of childhood sexual abuse struggle to forget. It is very, very, very rare that a person would forget having been molested, and the majority of these rare cases are with limited mental function due to organic or traumatic brain defect - mental disability.

One thing that you said a few times was that you might "confront" your friend. This implies that you do see something wrong with what happened. I would encourage you to at least consider that the behavior was more normal than you might think. We're not told as kids that sex behavior is normal at all. And there is the possibility that your friend was molested, simply because it does happen a lot. So maybe you'll be able to be a very good support for her.

Well, hope this helps.

[skigirl]

Just a bit more....

I read through your posts above, again. You might be thinking, after reading what I just said, something like "she doesn't know the things I did." You stated there's something you could never tell anybody - that you'll take it to your grave. It's understandable to have something you feel uncomfortable sharing with other people. The problem it's causing you is the amount of shame you have for it. Here's a way to determine if you were "innocent" or not when you did what you did. Here goes - you ready?

Were you a child when it happened? Then you are undoubtedly "innocent."

I've worked with kids who've been abused in horrific ways, and there's not a thing I haven't heard of. There's kids who do bad things and there's kids who as a result of their environment are emotionally unstable, and there's kids with mental disabilities. But as far as there being a "bad" kid - I truly believe such a thing does not exist.

Let me ask you this. If a little girl came up to you and said she had just done the thing you did and are so ashamed of, would you think she's disgusting or would you think she perhaps needs someone taking better care of her?

[kimj]

It is very hard to say what "normal" is, but it seems to me that what you and your friend did, although it might have been unusual, was not "wrong" in my opinion. There is always the chance that your friend might have been abused, but I don't see what good bringing this up with her would do for either of you.

[ashenn]

Dandelion,

i haven't been following this thread at all, but i was moved by your predicament and wanted to comment:

as someone posted earlier, we're biological creatures: we 'know' about sex long before we know what sex is for. children in isolated cultures engage in 'sex play', as it's called, and the elders of these cultures regard it as a 'natural means of reaching adulthood'. and, just expounding on the biological part a little bit more, who hasn't seen a naive puppy getting sweet on a stuffed animal, or someone's leg?...it's the same principle. we're driven to procreate long before we know what 'procreation' means. you can only really learn about anything by taking it for a test-run, which is what your instincts were telling you to do, which is absolutely, 100% natural.

let me propose that it's NOT the experience you had with your friend, and not even your secret, that's screwing you up.

it's your aversion to the natural parts of yourself, your sexuality and appearance for starters, that's messing with you. there's some overcorrection going on in your brain that is telling you, "this part of you is not good enough, it is ugly, dirty, etc."-- and so you attempt to fix whatever quality it is, whether it's bad skin or early sexual proclivity or whathaveyou, instead of just letting it be.

it's ok to let it be, you know?

i am not telling you that those experiences were normal, because i don't think that standard exists. natural? yes. normal? maybe not! ...but in this case, i'd wager about 75% of females (including myself) have had similar if not nearly identical experiences, with a nice percentage of males in there, too. the difference is most men would never admit it. (my friend Tom had a completely homosexual 'experimentation' with his best friend from age 12-15, and just accepts it as part of his past. and he'll talk about it openly with anyone.)

so i guess my point is, honey, i think you are being too hard on yourself and guilting yourself into thinking there is something wrong with your behavior when, if you weren't 'Dandelion', you would be more tolerant. you are not an awful monster. and if you still think your behavior was indecent or--God forbid--'abnormal', what's wrong with that? no one is the same, so how can anyone be normal?

<3 hope i don't sound too much like an ass.

luff.

Ash.

[ashenn]

wanted to add something else:

(this might be the hardest part)

i wish that everyone didn't have this weird idea that somewhere, in some space or time, there exists a perfect human. it's okay to have bad qualities-- a hairy mole, a pimple, overt horniness. IT'S OK, damnit!

when it stops being ok is when we become unmindful of these bad qualities.

so-- SEE them, accept them, and if you are unsatisfied, accept them as a catalyst for growth. but don't stifle them or attempt to erase them; they are natural, and they need just as much positive attention as good qualities.

*fwoof*

[skigirl]

OMG, Ash. You managed to state in a more clear way what I was trying to say above. I soooo totally agree with you. I believe that if people were more able to accept sex as a natural process, criminal child molestation would become less predominant. A large part of why child molesters are so successful in what they do is that they prey on this feeling of how sex is a dirty, wrong thing - especially experimentation in children, plus they know that children have a natural curiosity. So the child is curious, the perpetrator makes a move, and it's the CHILD who ends up feeling guilty. Some kids are fortunate to be raised in a home where there's more security and basic acceptance of sex as a natural thing. It's the kids who feel guilty about their sex play and curiosity who end up victimized.

And BTW, let me say that somehow I pictured you exactly the way you look. How weird is that?

[Spring Angel]

Rachacha,

I believe that you are totally invalidating dandelion's feelings here. Her feelings are different from your feelings. She felt something was wrong, you feel differently. As abuse victims I believe it is very important to help eachother to validate what is true for each of us, not pressure someone into believing a certain way. Our truths are our truths. We learn this in therapy. I have been in therapy for four years, and my therapist would NEVER have invalidated me the way you are doing with dandelion. She might say "I'm so sorry these events caused you so much distress and pain". That would be a validating comment.

Dandelion, I support you finding YOUR truth, and honoring that truth. no matter what it may be. I also support you doing your research on the web, and looking for your answers. I have done this as well, and found a lot of answers this way.

Abuse is a subtle foe. Some of us victims grow up to be severely co-dependent, others angry and rageful, still others become abusers and manipulators themselves.

We know that many of us on this website ARE abuse victims and as such can conclude also that many of us are not too well. Although some of us are working hard towards increased wellness.

Please, let's support each individual's truth and not force our opinions on eachother. That's why they call this a Support Board!

luv,

Spring

[Spring Angel]

Also, I would like to comment on Skigirl's statement that it is very rare for a child to block out childhood abuse. I think that statement is incorrect, and, as a therapy patient, and being "blessed" with DID and knowing many other DID patients, I can say with certainty that it is very common for children to block memories of childhood abuse. Children are born with the natural ability to dissociate, which diminishes with age. Why is this? Precisely so that children CAN block memories. So that the unacceptable can be forgotton and the child can go on believing that the parent is performing their role, and providing a safe and loving environment, so that the child can feel loved, despite what is happening to him or her. Without this feeling of being loved a child can actually not survive (Colin Ross, Dissociative Identity Disorder). It is necessary for the child's survival for the child to believe this.

As we grow older and pick up coping skills, the dissociative abilities go away. In a child who is severely abused, the dissociated memories may stay disconnected (dissociated) from the main memory. The development of alter parts is a possible outcome of this. Blocked memories is another. Some blocked memories may never be recovered. Some may be recovered if reconnections are made. Some memories are stored in the form of "Body" memories, and have no visual pictures attached to them, this is especially true of pre-verbal abuse memories, which are sibnificantly different that post-verbal abuse memories, because language significantly alters that way memories are stored in the brain.

I think lots of people do try to forget abuse memories, but to say that it is rare to block them is incorrect. Also, for me, I had memories for years about specific events, that I realized several years ago were missing "pieces" of them, in that the visual image was there but the "feeling" associated with the visual image was disconnected. When the connection was finally made, it was as though I experienced a complete paradigm shift, with the feeling now being attached to the memory the full horror of the memory came forward. In fact I have realized now that many of my memories were like clues to lead me to other more important memories, or like bookmarks, or sticky notes in my memory banks. I would only remember these clue memories for most of my life, until I was ready to reconnect the clue memories with the rest of the feeling memories.

There is a whole lot more that could be said on this subject of repressed or blocked memories but this is not really the forum for it. I am not a doctor, therapist or psychiatrist. Just an interested party who wants to support dandelion.

In friendship,

Spring

[SpringAngel]

Just want to say that I did not intend to force my views upon anyone.

luv,

Spring